2011 Chrysler Town And Country complaints

WE OWN A 2011 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY VAN WHICH WAS PURCHASED IN MARCH 2011. THE VAN HAS A BLIND SPOT MONITOR RADAR SYSTEM TO INDICATE WHEN VEHICLES ARE NEAR YOU ON EITHER SIDE. WE NOTICED THAT THE LEFT SIDE SYSTEM DID NOT TURN ON THE WARNING UNTIL THE OVERTAKING VEHICLE''S FRONT BUMPER WAS EVEN WITH OUR VAN''S REAR BUMPER. IF ONE WERE TO CHANGE LANES WHEN THE VEHICLE IS THAT CLOSE, AN ACCIDENT WILL RESULT. THE RIGHT SIDE SYSTEM WARNS MUCH FURTHER BACK. WE TOOK THE VAN BACK TO THE DEALER ON 9/28/11. THEY HAD NO INFORMATION ON THE PROBLEM AND DID NOT KNOW HOW TO FIX IT. THEY WERE ABLE TO FIND THE TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION FOR THE DETECTION WINDOW FOR THE SYSTEM WHICH STATES THAT THE OVERTAKING VEHICLE SHOULD BE DETECTED AT APPROXIMATELY 15 FT BEHIND OUR REAR BUMPER. THIS RIGHT SIDE SYSTEM APPEARS TO BE DETECTING AT THAT DISTANCE. THE DEALER ALSO TEST DROVE OTHER VANS WITH THE MONITOR SYSTEM AND TOLD US THAT ALL OF THEM WORKED THE SAME AS MINE. I MADE SEVERAL FOLLOW UP CALLS TO THE DEALERSHIP MANAGER BUT NEVER RECEIVED ANY INFORMATION REGARDING EFFORTS TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM. ON 12/29/11, I CALLED CHRYSLER CUSTOMER SERVICE TO ENLIST THEIR ASSISTANCE. THEY TALKED WITH BOTH THE DEALERSHIP MANAGER AND SERVICE MANAGER AT HALL CHRYSLER, BUT WERE TOLD THAT THE SYSTEM IS WORKING AS DESIGNED. THEY SAID THAT WE COULD TAKE THE VAN TO A DIFFERENT DEALER TO SEE IF THEY WOULD DOCUMENT THE PROBLEM, BUT THAT OTHERWISE THEY COULD NOT DO ANYTHING TO FIX THE PROBLEM. I FEEL THAT THIS IS A SAFETY

ENGINE NOISE. COMPARED TO OUR OLD VAN, THE SOUNDS FROM THE NEW VAN ENGINE ARE LOUDER. I NOTICED WHEN WE BOUGHT THE 2011 VAN IN JANUARY, THAT IT DOES NOT HAVE A SOUND INSULATED HOOD. TODAY WHEN DRIVING A 2010 LOANER T&C - FROM THE LOCAL DEALER WHEN OUR TRANSMISSION WAS BEING SERVICED - THE 2010 HAS A PIECE OF INSULATION ON THE UNDERSIDE OF THE HOOD. THE 2011 MODEL DOES NOT HAVE THIS INSULATION AND IS NOISIER. IS THIS A COST CUTTING EFFORT? NOTHING LIKE TRYING TO PLEASE CUSTOMERS TO HELP FUTURE SALES. *TR

WE HAVE HAD MANY MECHANICAL CONCERNS WITH OUR NEW T&C 2011. WE HAVE TAKEN OUR VEHICLE IN MANY TIMES TO CERRITOS DODGE CHRYSLER DEALERSHIP. AFTER A FAILED ATTEMPT TO FIX SOMETHING WITHIN THE TRANSMISSION, THEY COMPLETELY REPLACED THE TRANSMISSION. THERE WERE STILL CONCERNS AND A WEEK LATER THE VEHICLE HAD BELTS AND THE WATER PUMP REPLACED. TO DATE, MANY OF OUR INITIAL CONCERNS STILL EXIST AND ARE NOT BEING FIXED. CONCERNS INCLUDE: 1. NOISES FROM UNDER THE HOOD. 2. SHUDDER/ SHAKE WHILE THE VEHICLE IS IN REVERSE. 3. KEYLESS START MALFUNCTIONS, IT CONTINUES TO READ "DEFECTED KEY", AFTER THE KEYS HAVE BEEN RESET, 4. WHILE USING KEYLESS, THE VEHICLE SHUTS OFF WHEN PUTTING THE CAR INTO REVERSE/DRIVE. 5. ROUGH IDLE, THE VEHICLE SEEMS TO STRUGGLE TO STAY RUNNING. 6. WHEN CHANGING GEARS, THE SHIFT MAKES A CLUNKING/GRINDING NOISE. THE ONLY CONSISTENT THING ABOUT THIS VEHICLE IS ITS INCONSISTENCY. THE DEALERSHIP STATES THAT THE NOISES ARE "NORMAL". THE REGIONAL AREA SERVICE MANAGER HAS BEEN CONTACTED, AND HAS SIDED WITH THE DEALERSHIP. CORPORATE HAS ALSO BEEN CONTACTED, AND THEY ARE INVESTIGATING THE CURRENT SITUATION. *TR

TRANSMISSION CLUNKS WHEN SHIFTING INTO REVERSE. DOES THIS FREQUENTLY. NOTED IT FIRST A FEW THOUSAND MILES AGO, STILL DOING IT, ALSO NOTED THAT IT ROLLS BACK WHEN ON A SLIGHT INCLINE WHEN AT A STOP SIGN ON A HILL, MAYBE PART OF THE SAME PROBABLY OR MORE PROBLEMS WITH CHRYSLER TRANSMISSIONS, OR THEY FORGOT TO PUT IN A ROLLBACK PREVENTER IN THESE NEW DESIGNS. *TR

MY CAR HAS A "PUSH BUTTON" ELECTRONIC KEY SENSING START SYSTEM. I PARKED MY CAR, RADIO RUNNING, TOOK MY KEY FROM CAR, LOCKED CAR. CAR KEEPS RUNNING INDEFINITELY EVEN THOUGH KEY IS NOT IN PROXIMITY TO IGNITION. IF A DRIVER TAKES HIS KEYS FROM THE CAR AND CAR IS IN "PARK", I THINK VEHICLE SHOULD SHUT DOWN AFTER AN APPROPRIATE TIME DELAY SUCH AS 15MINUTES. IF A PERSON DRIVES HIS CAR INTO A CLOSED ATTACHED GARAGE, LEAVES THE CAR WITH THE KEY BUT DOES NOT PUSH THE "OFF" BUTTON...THE CAR WILL RUN UNTIL OUT OF GAS. THIS IS A POTENTIAL HAZARD TO PEOPLE IN HOUSE AS EXHAUST FUMES WILL BUILD UP IN CLOSED GARAGE. CHRYSLER CAN PROGRAM THE ELECTRONICS TO STOP THE ENGINE AFTER 15 MIN, IF KEY HAS LEFT PROXIMITY OF IGNITION, AND CAR IS IN PARK. *TR

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2011 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. THE CONTACT STATED THAT WHEN SHIFTING INTO REVERSE, THE VEHICLE WOULD LUNGE ABNORMALLY BEFORE RESPONDING. BOTH THE DEALER AND THE MANUFACTURER WAS CONTACTED, BUT DENIED ANY ASSISTANCE WITH REPAIRS TO THE VEHICLE. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT REPAIRED. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS UNAVAILABLE AND THE CURRENT MILEAGE WAS 9,000. THE VIN WAS UNAVAILABLE.

TRANSMISSION MAKES NOISE AT 16MPH CHRYSLER IS AWARE OF THE NOISE. CHRYSLER STATES THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE "FIX" FOR IT AT THIS TIME. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO ME AS A CUSTOMER OF CHRYSLER. THANK YOU. *KB

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2011 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. THE CONTACT STATED ATTEMPTED TO SHIFT FROM PARK TO DRIVE BUT THE VEHICLE FAILED TO SHIFT PROPERLY. THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO THE DEALER WHERE THE DEALER CONFIRMED A FAILURE WITH A PROGRAM ASSOCIATED WITH THE TRANSMISSION. THE MANUFACTURER WAS CONTACTED BUT THE VEHICLE WAS NOT REPAIRED. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 1,000 AND THE CURRENT MILEAGE WAS 8,200. UPDATED 12/19/11*BF THE CONSUMER STATED THE VEHICLE HAD A SOFTWARE FAILURE. THE VEHICLE WAS UNABLE TO BE OPERATED IN THE ECONOMY MODE AND THERE WAS NO FIX AVAILABLE....UPDATED 01/31/12 *BF UPDATED 03/05/12

NOISY TIRES, 225 65R 17 MICHELIN ENERGY A/S FEATHERING ON OUTSIDE EDGES ON FRONT TIRES. ALIGNMENT CHECKED AND FOUND TO BE IN SPEC BY DEALER. TIRERACK RATES THIS TIRE VERY HIGH, BUT AFTER A FEW THOUSAND MILES, THEY ARE ALREADY SHOWING SIGNS OF ABNORMAL WEAR AND CUPPING. THE COMBINATION OF THE T&C FWD ENGINE WEIGHT, CHEAP FRONT END COMPONENTS WHICH CAUSE STABILITY PROBLEMS, ALONG WITH THIS SOFT RIDING, HARD RUBBER MICHELIN, WILL BECOME ANOTHER PROBLEM LIKE THE FORD EXPLORER & MAVERICKS WITH FIRESTONE 500S. STEERING STABILITY, QUICK RESPONSE AND WANDER ARE A SAFELY ISSUE ON THIS TIRE /VEHICLE COMBINATION. *TR

TODAY I NOTED THAT BOTH MICHELIN AS ENERGY SAVER 225 65 R17 FRONT TIRES ARE CUPPING ON OUTSIDE EDGE, STEERING HAS BEEN VERY SENSITIVE AT HIGH SPEED, VEHICLE WANDERS EASILY ON THE FREEWAY REQUIRING FREQUENT STEERING CORRECTION. IT IS THE ALIGNMENT OF THE "CASTER" ADJUSTMENT/DESIGN OR MANUFACTURING OF THE NEW T&C DESIGN HAS A PROBLEM. WITH ONLY 3500 MILES ON IT, I RAN MY HAND OVER THE TREAD OF ALL TIRES, AND THE FRONT TIRES ARE CUPPING, WHILE THE REAR ARE SMOOTH. PLEASE ADVISE. DEALER INFORMED OF OVERSENSITVE STEERING, HAS NOT PERFORMED AN ALIGNMENT YET. WAITING FOR A CALL FROM CHRYSLER COMPLAINT DEPT. *TR

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2011 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. THE CONTACT STATED THE DRIVER AND PASSENGER SIDE VIEW MIRRORS WERE DEFECTIVE AND THE METAL CHROME ON THE MIRRORS EXHIBIT A SUN-GLARE THAT OBSTRUCTS THE VIEW AND COULD CAUSE A CRASH. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT REPAIRED. THE FAILURE AND THE CURRENT MILEAGE WAS 400.

WHILE TRAVELING SOUTHBOUND ON TEXAS STATE HIGHWAY 195 APPROXIMATELY 5 MILES SOUTH OF FLORENCE, TEXAS I ENGAGED MY VEHICLE PASSING GEAR AND PASSED ANOTHER SOUTHBOUND VEHICLE. I REENTERED THE SOUTHBOUND LANE AND TOOK MY FOOT OFF THE ACCELERATOR. THE VEHICLE CONTINUED TO ACCELERATE AND AT APPROXIMATELY 85 MPH, I BEGAN APPLYING BRAKING PRESSURE ON THE BRAKE PEDAL. I CONTINUED TO APPLY AND RELEASE BRAKING PRESSURE AND WAS ABLE TO MAINTAIN CONTROL OF THE VEHICLE AND THE SPEED AT AROUND 85 MPH. THERE WERE NO OTHER VEHICLES TRAVELING SOUTHBOUND IN FRONT OF MY VEHICLE AND AFTER APPROXIMATELY .2 MILE, THE PASSING GEAR RELEASED AND THE REMAINDER OF THE TRIP WAS UNREMARKABLE. I AM A RETIRED MILITARY AVIATOR AND RETIRED POLICE CHIEF. I WAS ALSO AN FAA CERTIFIED FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR (MULTIPLE RATING BOTH FIXED WING AND ROTARY WING. I WAS ALWAYS TAUGHT TO, AND ALSO TAUGHT STUDENTS TO MAINTAIN CONTROL OF THE AIRCRAFT (VEHICLE). I'M CERTAIN THIS TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE HELPED ME IN THIS SITUATION. *TR

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2011 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY WITH MICHELIN GREEN X RADIAL X TIRES, LINE SIZE P225/65R17, DOT NUMBER: M33T00KX3111. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE REAR PASSENGER SIDE TIRE EXPLODED WHEN SHE SLIGHTLY CRASHED INTO THE CURB WHILE IN REVERSE AT 5 MPH. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE FAILURE WAS THE SECOND OCCURRENCE WITH THE TIRES. THE VEHICLE WAS TAKEN TO THE DEALER WHO REPLACED THE FIRST TIRE. THE TIRE WAS REPLACED. THE DEALER WAS INFORMED OF THE INITIAL FAILURE BUT NOT THE MOST RECENT. THE MANUFACTURER WAS NOTIFIED OF THE FAILURE WHO ADVISED THAT THEY NEEDED TO SPEAK WITH THE DEALER. THE CONTACT FILED A CLAIM (CLAIM NUMBER: 21378042) BUT NO FURTHER ASSISTANCE WAS OFFERED. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 535 AND THE CURRENT MILEAGE WAS 586. THE FAILURE MILEAGE OF THE TIRE WAS 40.

STEERING IS OVERSENSITIVE, VEHICLE OVERSTEERS VERY EASILY. DEALER PERFORMED 3 SOFTWARE UPGRADES, ONE TO EACH OF THESE MODULES: PCM, WIN AND STEERING SENSOR. STEERING IS NOT BETTER. THIS OVERSTEER SEEMS TO BE MORE OF A MECHANICAL DESIGN FLAW, AND FEELS UNSTABLE, LIKE IT IS EASY TO DRIFT INTO OTHER LANES, CAUSING AN ACCIDENT. HARSH RIDE. OUR 2004 T&C WAS MUCH BETTER. THE MORE I DRIVE THE NEW 2011, THE MORE I HATE IT, WANT MY OLD VAN BACK. *TR

CHRYSLER"S BEST KEPT SECRET, FLAWS IN THE CYLINDER HEADS OF THEIR NEW 283 HP V6 ENGINE. THE ENGINE OVER HEATS AT HIGHWAY SPEEDS, MINE RAN AS HIGH AS 244 DEGREES F. AND THE AC WOULD NOT WORK ON A HOT DAY AND A LONG TRIP. THE DEALER DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THIS PROBLEM. I WENT ON THE INTERNET AND FOR $56.00 I KNEW ALL ABOUT IT IN 5 MINUTES. IF I HAD KNOWN ABOUT THE PROBLEM AHEAD OF TIME I WOULD NOT HAVE SPENT $32,000.00 FOR THE HEAD ACHE. I SHOWED MY INFORMATION TO THE SERVICE MANAGER AND HE CALLED ME AND TOLD ME I WAS RIGHT! NOW HE HAS TO FIND NEW IMPROVED HEADS. AS OF THIS DATE I HAVE BEEN WITHOUT MY AUTOMOBILE FOR A WEEK ! I EMAILED CHRYSLER AN ALL I GOT BACK WAS A FORM LETTER TELLING ME THEY WERE SORRY AND TO SEE MY DEALER. THIS IS MY LAST CHRYSLER AFTER A LONG RELATIONSHIP. FROM PAST EXPERIENCES THE ENGINE WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AS A FACTORY BUILT ENGINE!

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2011 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. THE CONTACT WAS DRIVING 35 MPH WHEN THE ENGINE STALLED WHILE DRIVING DOWN A HILL. THE VEHICLE COASTED TO A COMPLETE STOP, AND WAS TOWED TO THE DEALER. THE MANUFACTURER WAS CONTACTED, BUT THE VEHICLE WAS NOT REPAIRED. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 600 AND THE CURRENT MILEAGE WAS 900.

IN MY 2011 T&C, THE BACKUP CAMERA IS TOO DIM TO SEE IN DAYLIGHT. IT CAN BE USED AT NIGHT AND IT'S MODERATELY USEFUL ON A DARK DAY. BUT IN FULL SUNLIGHT THE CAMERA SCREEN JUST CANNOT BE SEEN WELL ENOUGH TO BE USEFUL. I HAVE THE RBZ RADIO IN IT. I HAD THE SAME RADIO IN A 2010 T&C AND AT FIRST THAT CAMERA WAS JUST AS BAD. I FOUND S TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN SHOWING A SOFTWARE UPDATE FOR THAT PROBLEM ON THE INTERNET, AND ONCE THE DEALER UPDATED THE SOFTWARE, THE BACKUP CAMERA WAS DRAMATICALLY BETTER. NOW, I BUY A 2011..., AND THEY SEEM TO HAVE GONE BACKWARD. IT'S JUST AS BAD OR EVEN WORSE THAN THE 2010. I TOOK IT BACK TO THE DEALER AND THEY FIDDLED WITH IT AND CHECKED OTHER VEHICLES, BUT THEY SAID THEY ARE ALL THE SAME, EVEN THOUGH THEY ADMIT IT'S TOO DIM TO USE IN SUNLIGHT AND THAT THE SOFTWARE UPDATE THEY DID ON MY 2010 MADE A HUGE IMPROVEMENT. UNFORTUNATELY, THEY SAY THERE IS NOTHING THEY CAN DO UNTIL CHRYSLER SENDS OUT EITHER A SOLUTION OR A SOFTWARE UPDATE DOING TO MY 2011 RADIO, THE SAME FIX THEY DID TO MY 2010. FOR A VEHICLE THAT HAS A STICKER PRICE GETTING CLOSE TO $40,000, I FIND THIS DISAPPOINTING. I LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE ABOUT THE VAN, BUT THE FACT THAT IT'S SO GOOD OTHERWISE JUST MAKES THIS PROBLEM EVEN MORE FRUSTRATING! *TR

WHEN BACKING UP AN SLIGHTLY INCLINED DRIVEWAY MY NEW 2011 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY (1500 MILES) STARTED SHUDDERING LIKE THE TRANSMISSION WAS FAILING. IN ORDER TO BACK UP I HAD TO ACCELERATE BEYOND WHAT WAS SAFE FOR THE TIGHT AREA I WAS IN. I ROAD TESTED IT ON A STEEP INCLINE AND WAS NOT ABLE TO BACK UP WITH OUT A LOT OF LOUD NOISE AND SHUDDERING. I TOOK IT TO MY DEALER AND THEY AGREED THAT IT SHUDDERED WHEN BACKING UP. THE DEALER TRIED A NEW ONE ON THE LOT AND IT DID THE SAME THING. THE DEALER CONTACTED CHRYSLER, WHO SAID THAT THEIR IS NOTHING THEY COULD DO, BECAUSE IT WAS "CHARACTERISTIC OF THIS VEHICLE" I HAVE THIS IN WRITING FROM MY DEALER. I AM NOW STUCK WITH A $40,000 VEHICLE THAT CAN NOT BE USED SAFELY AT SLOWER SPEEDS IN SITUATIONS INVOLVING INCLINES. *TR

MY WIFE AND I BOUGHT THE VAN AT A REAL GOOD PRICE OR SO WE THOUGHT ... SHE WOKE UP THIS MORNING TO GOTO WORK AFTER TAKING OUR SON TO DAYCARE... SHE STOPPED AT A CONVENIENT STORE AFTER DROPPING HIM OFF AND TURNED THE VAN OFF. WHEN SHE CAME BACK OUT AND TRIED TO CRANK IT , THE VAN DID NOTHING... THE INTERIOR LIGHTS WERE ON AND SO WAS THE RADIO.. THOUGHT IT WAS THE BATTERY BUT COME TO FIND OUT THE DEALERSHIP THAT WE BOUGHT IT FROM SAID IT WAS THE POWER MODULE AND THAT IT WAS AROUND FIVE TO EIGHT HUNDRED DOLLARS TO FIX.. WE HAVE ONLY HAD THE VAN FOR LESS THAN THREE MONTHS AND IT JUST SEEMS UNFAIR THAT THIS COULD HAPPEN THAT SOON. *TR

TL*THE CONTACT OWNS A 2011 CHRYSLER TOWN & COUNTRY. THE CONTACT STATED DURING SUNNY WEATHER CONDITIONS THE REAR VIEW CAMERA MONITOR MADE IT DIFFICULT TO DISPLAY IMAGES OR SEE OBJECTS ON THE SCREEN. THE CONTACT TOOK THE VEHICLE TO THE DEALER WHO STATED THERE WAS NOTHING THEY COULD DO TO REPAIR THE CAMERA. THE CONTACT STATED THE REAR VIEW CAMERA COULD POTENTIALLY CAUSE A CRASH. THE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 3,700. UPDATED 07/08/11 *BF UPDATED 09/19/11

THE FRONT PASSENGER SEAT BELT ALERT SYSTEM DOES NOT FUNCTION ON MY NEW 2011 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY LIMITED. I HADN'T NOTICED THIS FACT UNTIL A PASSENGER COMMENTED IN SURPRISE THAT HER SEAT BELT WAS NOT FASTENED. THIS WAS AT THE END OF A DRIVE ACROSS TOWN. I CONTACTED THE DEALER IMMEDIATELY, AND THE SERVICE MANGER INFORMED ME THAT CHRYSLER FOUND IN MANUFACTURING THAT THIS PASSENGER SEAT BELT ALERT DID NOT WORK CORRECTLY, SO THEY DISABLED IT IN SOFTWARE. HE FURTHER SAID THAT IF OR WHEN A SOFTWARE UPDATE BECOMES AVAILABLE TO FIX THE PROBLEM, I WOULD BE INFORMED OF THE FIX. *TR

TL* THE CONTACT TEMPORARILY RENTED A 2011 CHRYSLER TOWN & COUNTRY. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE HEAD RESTS OF THE SECOND ROW CAPTAINS CHAIRS FAILED. WHILE A FOUR-YEAR-OLD CHILD WAS SECURED IN A CHILD RESTRAINT IN THE SECOND ROW CAPTAIN CHAIR. THE CHILD WAS ABLE TO ENGAGE THE HEAD REST LEVER AND THE HEAD REST DETACHED FROM ITS HOUSING AS THE SEAT RESTRAINED FORWARD WITH THE CHILD STILL IN THE SEAT. THE CHILD WAS TURNED OVER, FACE DOWN WHILE STILL IN THE CHILD RESTRAINT. A PASSENGER ATTEMPTED TO MOVE THE SEAT BACK IN THE UPWARD POSITION AND INJURED HIS HAND. THE MANUFACTURER WAS CONTACTED BUT OFFERED NO ASSISTANCE. THE VIN WAS NOT AVAILABLE. THE FAILURE AND CURRENT MILEAGE WAS 174. UPDATED 03/22/11*LJ UPDATED 1/4/11 *CN

TL* THE CONTACT OWNS A 2011 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY. THE CONTACT WAS DRIVING APPROXIMATELY 30 MPH WHEN HE NOTICED THERE WAS CHROME RING AROUND THE PASSENGER SIDE HEATER DECK, CAUSING A REFLECTION IN THE REARVIEW MIRROR. THE CONTACT STATED THAT THE REFLECTION WAS VERY DISTRACTING TO HIM WHILE DRIVING AND WAS CONCERNED WITH THE POTENTIAL OF A CRASH. THE VEHICLE WAS NOT REPAIRED. THE APPROXIMATE FAILURE MILEAGE WAS 50. . UPDATED 03/03/11 *BF UPDATED 12/20/11 *CN